hi again, more details about errors with surfarray: >>> import pygame.surfarray as s >>> print s C:\PYTHON22\Tools\idle\idle.pyw:1: RuntimeWarning: use surfarray: No module named _numpy try: <pygame.MissingModule instance at 0x00A940B0> >>> s <pygame.MissingModule instance at 0x00A940B0> >>> what does this "MissingModule" mean? thanks for the help!